Fawaz Gerges of the London School of Economics and I joined Monocle 24’s The Globalist on Monday morning, initially to discuss a report that Saudi Arabia is now the world’s largest importer of arms.

However, the chat soon turned into a spiky exchange of views over whether this is a portent of a spiraling “Cold War” between Saudi Arabia and Iran across the Middle East, with no end in sight. Gerges’ belief in an all-encompassing regional battle meets Lucas’s caveats about the local complexities and Tehran’s attempts to “engage” Riyadh.

Listen from 15:42: